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IndustryArena Forum > MetalWorking Machines > Tormach Personal CNC Mill > Will my Tormach PCNC 1100M be able to cut this mould? Material is P20 Steel. File ecl
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  1. #1

    Will my Tormach PCNC 1100M be able to cut this mould? Material is P20 Steel. File ecl

    Hello everyone. I've booked a Tormach PCNC 1100M and posted a previous thread about my concerns about it being able to machine steel moulds. There was some reassurance that the Tormach will be able to cut this, but I'm still worried about accuracy and strength, so I thought it would help if I attached a typical Rubber Compression Mould design (bottom plate) if anyone would be kind enough to have a look and tell me any red flags they see when trying to cut such a part on the Tormach.

    The file is a compression mould bottom half for an ice cube type tray. You can find it here for the next 30 days: https://ufile.io/qnk0xwns

    Also this is a really really stupid question, but if the Tormach has a less powerful motor, why can't we just switch the motor for a more powerful one? It's after all just a single phase motor right?

    Thank you once again in advance.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
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    5717

    Re: Will my Tormach PCNC 1100M be able to cut this mould? Material is P20 Steel. File

    You could put a larger motor on the Tormach, but then you would have to strengthen the machine frame and other hardware to be able to take full advantage of the additional power.
    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA

  3. #3
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    1788

    Re: Will my Tormach PCNC 1100M be able to cut this mould? Material is P20 Steel. File

    Quote Originally Posted by makesomerubber View Post
    Also this is a really really stupid question, but if the Tormach has a less powerful motor, why can't we just switch the motor for a more powerful one? It's after all just a single phase motor right?
    The spindle motor on most Tormachs (770xx and 1100xx) is a three-phase motor run from a VFD. I believe that the 440 spindle uses a BLDC motor. As others have mentioned it is probably not useful to install a larger motor without making the machine more rigid.

  4. #4

    Re: Will my Tormach PCNC 1100M be able to cut this mould? Material is P20 Steel. File

    thats a pretty straight forward part to make . Use the right cutters and program and you should be fine . That part can easily be a challenge if it was aluminum and you take the wrong approach , no matter the machine . .
    The only real challenge that I see is my assumption that the alignment holes are likely going to have a high positional tolerance . This is where smart machining practices are a necessity even on high end machines . If your boring them out then you need to approach each hole with the same motion , which is to say that you would approach each hole at the same angle to take up any machine slack . Example , hole one start your position in x-1 y-1 from the hole , feed it into position , then bore . Do the exact same motion for each hole .

  5. #5

    Re: Will my Tormach PCNC 1100M be able to cut this mould? Material is P20 Steel. File

    Thank you metalmayhem. This is exactly the sort of advice I was looking for. You are spot on when you say those alignment holes are critical. Even a little off centre and my part wall thickness can change and alter its function (think a Rubber Bellow with 0.5mm wall thicknesses, if the plates move 0.2mm I'll get thin and fat walls). I've never machined a single part in my life, so I don't even know how to drill those type of holes. I'm guessing I need a boring bar and a reamer from what I've read, and these sort of holes aren't done with endmills?

    And this is also what I've kind of learnt so far;

    A facemill is used to shave off large quantities of metal from the top of the mould. May not need one if I get my blocks surface grinded to flatness?

    A reamer is used to clean what the boring bar didn't do so well?

    An end mill is your go to tool for slotting, shoulder milling?

    I need drills for smaller holes?

    End mills vary by length, no of flutes, material and coating? Some end mills have insertable cutters? - I don't know the advantages or disadvantages of using these type of cutters.

    I don't even know where to start when it comes to what are the minimum tools I need to have in my CNC shop to be able to machine this mould. I know I'd be asking a lot of someone could take a look at my model and tell me all the different types of cutters I would probably need, but you would really be helping me out.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
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    670

    Re: Will my Tormach PCNC 1100M be able to cut this mould? Material is P20 Steel. File

    Quote Originally Posted by makesomerubber View Post
    Thank you metalmayhem. This is exactly the sort of advice I was looking for. You are spot on when you say those alignment holes are critical. Even a little off centre and my part wall thickness can change and alter its function (think a Rubber Bellow with 0.5mm wall thicknesses, if the plates move 0.2mm I'll get thin and fat walls). I've never machined a single part in my life, so I don't even know how to drill those type of holes. I'm guessing I need a boring bar and a reamer from what I've read, and these sort of holes aren't done with endmills?

    And this is also what I've kind of learnt so far;

    A facemill is used to shave off large quantities of metal from the top of the mould. May not need one if I get my blocks surface grinded to flatness?

    A reamer is used to clean what the boring bar didn't do so well?

    An end mill is your go to tool for slotting, shoulder milling?

    I need drills for smaller holes?

    End mills vary by length, no of flutes, material and coating? Some end mills have insertable cutters? - I don't know the advantages or disadvantages of using these type of cutters.

    I don't even know where to start when it comes to what are the minimum tools I need to have in my CNC shop to be able to machine this mould. I know I'd be asking a lot of someone could take a look at my model and tell me all the different types of cutters I would probably need, but you would really be helping me out.
    Please take this as a constructive observation and not that I'm trying to attack you.

    After reading your post above I think you need to ask yourself if you are setting yourself up for failure. Mold work is some of the most challenging to do in the CNC machine work due to the accuracy required. When you are asking about "what is your go to end mill" type questions it points to you have a ton of learning ahead. Long before you get to making any tight tolerance molds. It's about the same as saying that you want to do neuro surgery as soon as you get an office but just signed up for a first aid class last week. Again, not trying to slam you but I think you need to set your expectations. Especially with the Tormach. Many folks can make molds on the Tormachs, however they have years of experience and know how to tweak things to adjust for error in the machine.

    My suggestion is that you need a local mentor who is willing to help you.
    The Body Armor Dude - Andrew

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by smokediver576 View Post
    Please take this as a constructive observation and not that I'm trying to attack you.

    After reading your post above I think you need to ask yourself if you are setting yourself up for failure. Mold work is some of the most challenging to do in the CNC machine work due to the accuracy required. When you are asking about "what is your go to end mill" type questions it points to you have a ton of learning ahead. Long before you get to making any tight tolerance molds. It's about the same as saying that you want to do neuro surgery as soon as you get an office but just signed up for a first aid class last week. Again, not trying to slam you but I think you need to set your expectations. Especially with the Tormach. Many folks can make molds on the Tormachs, however they have years of experience and know how to tweak things to adjust for error in the machine.

    My suggestion is that you need a local mentor who is willing to help you.
    I appreciate the honesty smokediver, and I'm under no illusion that I have a long road ahead. My biggest fear was the ability of my machine to do what I required of it, but I did not have a choice when it came to making the plunge for my cnc, as quite honestly my business would not be able to compete if I did not start making my own moulds. I'm willing to do whatever it takes to learn how to use this machine to do what I need it to do. I'm watching NY CNC everyday, Titans of CNC, Lars Christiansan etc to learn as much as I can before my machine arrives. These forums are a godsend in which even a small tip may help me break one less cutter or damage one less mould, but right now it's do or die for me (no pun intended).

  8. #8

    Re: Will my Tormach PCNC 1100M be able to cut this mould? Material is P20 Steel. File

    Quote Originally Posted by makesomerubber View Post
    Thank you metalmayhem. This is exactly the sort of advice I was looking for. You are spot on when you say those alignment holes are critical. Even a little off centre and my part wall thickness can change and alter its function (think a Rubber Bellow with 0.5mm wall thicknesses, if the plates move 0.2mm I'll get thin and fat walls). I've never machined a single part in my life, so I don't even know how to drill those type of holes. I'm guessing I need a boring bar and a reamer from what I've read, and these sort of holes aren't done with endmills?

    And this is also what I've kind of learnt so far;

    A facemill is used to shave off large quantities of metal from the top of the mould. May not need one if I get my blocks surface grinded to flatness?

    A reamer is used to clean what the boring bar didn't do so well?

    An end mill is your go to tool for slotting, shoulder milling?

    I need drills for smaller holes?

    End mills vary by length, no of flutes, material and coating? Some end mills have insertable cutters? - I don't know the advantages or disadvantages of using these type of cutters.

    I don't even know where to start when it comes to what are the minimum tools I need to have in my CNC shop to be able to machine this mould. I know I'd be asking a lot of someone could take a look at my model and tell me all the different types of cutters I would probably need, but you would really be helping me out.
    There is a wide variety of end mills and they have their purposes . I'd recommend researching the variable flute , variable helix , high helix , low helix , things like the benefits of having a corner rad . They all have there benefit or downfall .
    Then you have the varying coatings , many coatings are recommended as dry coatings but factors can also dictate the necessity of coolant even with these coated end mills . There is never a one size fits all , varying factors dictate varying approaches . The last thing a guy wants to do is work harden a part

    You'll want to invest in some end mills and cobalt drills for sure . I mentioned in the other thread about gorilla mill , fantastic tools and fantastic service . You can call them anytime and they are great with their recommendations , but at the same time they are busy so I think they'd appreciate answering technical questions that are within their direct expertise .
    A boring head with as short as possible carbide boring bar will be necessary for finishing your holes . You'll learn that a boring head can't be trusted to repeat tight tolerances between cycles . It is best to back off the the head each time , cut the bores undersize then adjust from there .
    Looking at what you have in the model i think you'd be good without a facemill and clean the top surface with an end mill with a slight radius on the tip .

    For the most part your looking at learning how to profile , pocket and surface machining . Fusion 360 will do all these things and more but autocad has way to much control over that software in my opinion , plus I find the cam too cumbersome to work with . I use bobcad on a regular basis and it's done really well for the mold type work that I have done . If you take that road be sure to get the right package that fits your needs , otherwise the salesmen are like used car salesmen and they will talk up the basic package as though it's a screaming deal , settle for no less than the mill pro package .
    Your going to have a big learning curve and obviously your prepared for that , so , go to the scrapper and buy a bunch of aluminum chunks , scale your mold to the sizes of the blocks and start learning

  9. #9
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    Re: Will my Tormach PCNC 1100M be able to cut this mould? Material is P20 Steel. File

    Quote Originally Posted by metalmayhem View Post
    Your going to have a big learning curve and obviously your prepared for that , so , go to the scrapper and buy a bunch of aluminum chunks , scale your mold to the sizes of the blocks and start learning
    That is a good suggestion but I'd consider using PVC foam board for your first learning experiments. PVC foam is cheaper than aluminum, far more forgiving of horrible mistakes and you can run much faster. More mistakes in less time! At least in North America, PVC foam board is available inexpensively in a variety of sizes from all of the big box -- Lowes, Home Depot, etc -- building supply stores. If you need a larger/thicker piece you can easily glue it with the gray PVC cement which sets quickly.

  10. #10

    Re: Will my Tormach PCNC 1100M be able to cut this mould? Material is P20 Steel. File

    lumber can also help learning the motions . With metal it's likely best to start with scrap aluminum vs going straight to p20 or any steel . I should have mentioned to start with cheaper end mills to get the feel for it . It's likely that some tools are going to get broken in the learning process but after a few costly mistakes a guy wants to make a point of not breaking anymore tools . I look at it in the sense that without proper training the hard way is the only way to learn , and a couple hundred worth of broken cutters is a small price to pay in the big scheme of things . Things can obviously get much worse but a guy could have a marshmallow in the vise and it won't help in those circumstances

  11. #11
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    591

    Re: Will my Tormach PCNC 1100M be able to cut this mould? Material is P20 Steel. File

    It's likely that some tools are going to get broken in the learning process
    I've been practicing for ... eight years now? Something like that.

    Yesterday was the first time I started the spindle with my wired probe still in it. It never ends!

    (It is one of the Hallmark Impact Tolerant Touch Probes, and after careful re-adjustment of the set screws it actually seems to still work! The electrical wire was stronger than the hold the set screws had on the shaft, so it ended up just spinning loose once all the cord was wound up around it ...)

  12. #12
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    Re: Will my Tormach PCNC 1100M be able to cut this mould? Material is P20 Steel. File

    We all have days that would have been more productive staying in bed but I blame it on advancing years.

  13. #13

    Re: Will my Tormach PCNC 1100M be able to cut this mould? Material is P20 Steel. File

    Quote Originally Posted by jwatte View Post
    I've been practicing for ... eight years now? Something like that.

    Yesterday was the first time I started the spindle with my wired probe still in it. It never ends!

    (It is one of the Hallmark Impact Tolerant Touch Probes, and after careful re-adjustment of the set screws it actually seems to still work! The electrical wire was stronger than the hold the set screws had on the shaft, so it ended up just spinning loose once all the cord was wound up around it ...)

    The worst of things can happen to the most seasoned guys , sh__ happens , so yes it never ends !

    On the bright side you didn't drive your probe into the table , so it's good to hear it ended as well as it did

  14. #14
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    Re: Will my Tormach PCNC 1100M be able to cut this mould? Material is P20 Steel. File

    I'm super happy with the ITTP (hi, @keen !)
    I've only jogged it into stock ... three times, or so?
    But that would have been three separate ruby tips with another probe...
    Also, the speed improvement in setup over an edge finder and z feeler gauge is unreal.

  15. #15

    Re: Will my Tormach PCNC 1100M be able to cut this mould? Material is P20 Steel. File

    Thank you everyone with your replies, especially metalmayhem. I've furiously taken notes, and can't wait for my machine to get here.

  16. #16
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    Re: Will my Tormach PCNC 1100M be able to cut this mould? Material is P20 Steel. File

    Quote Originally Posted by jwatte View Post
    I've been practicing for ... eight years now? Something like that.

    Yesterday was the first time I started the spindle with my wired probe still in it. It never ends!

    (It is one of the Hallmark Impact Tolerant Touch Probes, and after careful re-adjustment of the set screws it actually seems to still work! The electrical wire was stronger than the hold the set screws had on the shaft, so it ended up just spinning loose once all the cord was wound up around it ...)
    Cliff has really done a good thing developing his probe.
    I would like to see a spindle lockout or option to when the probe routines are selected.
    I would like to see when selecting the probing window that tool 99 is selected automatically and the 20 ipm speed default selected or an option to change it if you want.

    edit: Old age does have a bearing on a fellows abilities, I have firsthand knowledge of it.........................
    mike sr

  17. #17
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    Re: Will my Tormach PCNC 1100M be able to cut this mould? Material is P20 Steel. File

    I would like to see when selecting the probing window that tool 99 is selected automatically
    Oh, God, yes!

    These days, I end my manual programs with "T99 H99 M06 G43 F1000"
    I've even considered hacking the Tormach post in Fusion to do the same ...

  18. #18
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    Re: Will my Tormach PCNC 1100M be able to cut this mould? Material is P20 Steel. File

    Quote Originally Posted by popspipes View Post
    I would like to see a spindle lockout or option to when the probe routines are selected.
    How are you starting the spindle when on the probe page???
    Step

  19. #19
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    Re: Will my Tormach PCNC 1100M be able to cut this mould? Material is P20 Steel. File

    Quote Originally Posted by TurboStep View Post
    How are you starting the spindle when on the probe page???
    Step
    The spindle can still be started in manual, just another level of protection for the brain fog of the aging operator...........

    I would like to see T99 and 20 ipm selected by default when the probing pages are selected.
    mike sr

  20. #20
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    Re: Will my Tormach PCNC 1100M be able to cut this mould? Material is P20 Steel. File

    How are you starting the spindle when on the probe page???
    I don't need to be on the Probe page for the probe to be in the spindle...

    That being said, I, too, would love to see Tool 99 and Feed 1000 mm/s being selected when going to the Probe page.

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