Thread: Tormach v. Novakon - Opinions?

So I'm basically coming down to a choice between the Novakon Torus and the PCNC 1100 and looking for opinions. I'm looking at fairly typical high-end hobbyist prototyping and very limited commercial use. These are the points I see between them:

Work envelope: Basically the same for my purposes- the PCNC 1100 has a bit more X and a decent amount more Z, but either would be adequate for my anticipated uses.

Spindle: The Torus has full RPM range without a pulley and is a servo spindle. The constant torque and rigid tapping aspects are interesting but I don't see either of them as crucial to success.

Weight/rigidity: 1130 pounds for the 1100, 702 for the Torus. Not a small difference considering roughly comparable work envelope across two bed mills. I haven't seen a Torus in person so I don't know where the difference in weight comes from but the amount seems large enough to be possibly significant.

Accessories: Obviously an edge for Tormach here. Novakon seems to have a lot of the things I want in the works like a power drawbar but "coming soon" isn't the same as "buy now."

Support: Tormach is definitely well-established at this point. Novakon is more of a newcomer but they've been around a few years at least and they weren't easy years economically so I don't think they're fly-by-night. The risk I see is mainly that something odd happens and they disappear. I've built four benchtop machine stepper conversions from scratch so I'd probably be able to repair/replace the stuff most likely to go kaput.

Fit/Finish: The Tormach looks like a completely designed-from-scratch product where the Torus looks more like what I would build *if* I put a ton of time and part-sourcing into it. Sometimes aesthetics are a hint of overall quality and sometimes they're just skin-deep.

Price: For a machine with stand and coolant setup, the Torus comes in about $3500 less which is definitely enough to make me give it some serious consideration. Before anyone says it, I've been using TTS on my benchtop mill for a couple years so I'm pretty well set with tooling.

If anyone has had the chance to compare these machines "in the iron" so to speak I'd be especially interested to hear what you think. Tormach is obviously the leader in this space (which they largely pioneered) but on paper at least it seems like Novakon is starting to offer some real competition which can only benefit those of us buying machines!

Originally Posted by sansbury

So I'm basically coming down to a choice between the Novakon Torus and the PCNC 1100 and looking for opinions. I'm looking at fairly typical high-end hobbyist prototyping and very limited commercial use.

To summarize: in your review, Tormach wins on all points except price, and there the price-to-value may be better or equal.

I don't have and haven't seen a Novakon, but went through exactly the decision tree you're facing when I bought my Tormach in 2009. My needs and uses (and my experience) are almost exactly a match for yours. For me, the decider was the forums. Tormach has delighted its customers with both product and service. This is so close to universal as to be standard, and there are enough customers to be a good test.

One thing I don't think you've "weighted" heavily enough: in machine tools, the more iron, the better.

I'm sure you do know that many Tormach owners will let you visit. Do that, if you can. Maybe Novakon can help find a nearby owner too.

For what it's worth: I have never regretted buying the best tool I could, even if I had to wait to afford it. It'll be interesting to see if anyone has a head to head personal comparison, but absent a statistical group of those, my opinion is to buy the Tormach.

I don't have a Novakon or a Tormach, but went through your same process to pick between Mikini and Tormach. Damn I wish I had bought a Tormach! The forum support alone is enough to make the decision, even if it is more expensive (which for me it was not, the Mikini was more $, but on paper a better machine IMO. Certainly didn't turn out that way, though )

Originally Posted by GLCarlson

To summarize: in your review, Tormach wins on all points except price, and there the price-to-value may be better or equal.

Well, there is the servo spindle. I don't think there's any question that if tormach announced a similar option, a lot of people here would be pretty excited. I'm not giving it more points mostly because the tormach spindle seems sufficient, rather than equal.

The iron, yeah. The way I see it is you're maybe getting pcnc 770 rigidity with a 1100-ish XY envelope. I actually considered the 770 but the 7.5" Y scared me off. So the option is kind of interesting.

I hear you on price, but ~$3500 is a pretty significant difference on a 10k ish purchase. That pays for a lot of other toys, or a few months' rent. At 2k or so, I'd buy the 1100 without a second thought.

Make sure you consider the import taxes when comparing prices. Novakon comes from Canada, I think they're upfront about the tax costs though and list that pretty clearly, just make sure you've got it in your total.

Tormach service is as great as they say.

Originally Posted by GJeff

Make sure you consider the import taxes when comparing prices. Novakon comes from Canada, I think they're upfront about the tax costs though and list that pretty clearly, just make sure you've got it in your total.

Tormach service is as great as they say.

All taxes, duties, shipping, etc. are included in the written quote from Novakon. When my Torus Pro was delivered there were absolutely no additional costs (other than rental of a forklift for a day to unload it and set it up).

Regards,
Ray L.

Originally Posted by SCzEngrgGroup

All taxes, duties, shipping, etc. are included in the written quote from Novakon. When my Torus Pro was delivered there were absolutely no additional costs (other than rental of a forklift for a day to unload it and set it up).

Regards,
Ray L.

Curious what the total cost is for a torus pro, with all included costs of importing to the US. Hadn't considered additional import tax or anything of that nature.

PM if you'd like--

Thanks

The Torus to South Alabama for residential without lift gate service was $940.00. Included all Federal duties and shipping. I feel that was very reasonable.

Novakon has a limited Z height in its work cube. It would not work for my parts.

Mike

I have never used a Novakon. I have owned a Tormach 1100 since '07. The Novakon products remind me of a well meaning garage operation. Since everything is put together parts, there is no overall attention to quality. I'm reminded of a thread similar to this one http://www.cnczone.com/forums/novako..._part_1_a.html which I can't find at the moment. After buying a new 145 (I believe it was), he spend the next 3 months fixing blocked oil paths, replacing mushed gibs, and hand-honing the ways, which were contacting on just a few high spots. It was a real eye-opener to the focus on important-sounding items like servo motor, without attention to the details that make your machine work like a champ for years.

Tormach makes their machines, yes through chinese factories, from their own design. As best I can tell, Novakon has machines assembled from parts.

I personally would buy the Tormach in a heartbeat over a Novakon. You'll have to decide on what is most important to you, though.

I didn't take mine apart, but I did look at the ways and oil lines as best as I could with it still assembled and determined that it looked okay. Oil lines I mean. I didn't see any bends and have no leaks. I am sure the ways may be able to be done better by someone meticulous and with enough experience to do it, but the machine runs like there is no problems. It is a newer one though and may actually have better quality control.

If I had my druthers, I would have rather had a machine with all linear ways rather than gibs like the one that I built myself. Then we are talking considerably more cash outlay. I was on the fence for the 770 for at least a year. Hadn't even considered Novakon until recently. The two things that put me over were indeed the servo spindle and rigid tapping and the size over the 770. That and I just really needed to pull the trigger so I had two functional machines. My home made machine requires parts and maintenance from time to time. It is a workhorse. Two machines means production doesn't have to stop.

By all means though, get the one you are most comfortable with and that you think will suit your needs the best.
That is what I did.

tbaker2500

That was my thread. Just for clarification the machine was one of the original NM-200 series 1, the big machine, not a NM145.
Before I bought the machine, I checked it out pretty thoroughly. It had been neglected and abused.
The machine had been run with a disconnected oil line, which clearly did not do it any favours.
It had been used in a wood working environment and left idle for a protracted period of time.
When we picked it up there was a good 1 inch of wood dust and debris every where.
Recognizing the likely damage, I factored that into the purchase price and decided to totally rebuild it.

As manufactured the mill meets or exceeds the published specs.
During the rebuild, I decided to see if we could turn it into a "super" mill.
As detailed in the thread, we went overboard to exceed the manufacturing specs.
The results were a "super accurate" machine (< .0025) accuracy on X,Y axis movement over 17". These results were achieved with original parts supplied by Novakon with only the gibbs being given special attention.

Needless to say, no manufacturer could justify the time and attention we spent, unless they charged "big bucks".
What this experiment did prove was, that there was sufficient quality to start with, to allow tuning to a superlative machine.

I should also add that the newer units do provide increased oiling capacity not to mention numerous other improvements.

Trust this clears up any misconceptions about the purpose of the rebuild.

As to being "put together from parts", doesn't that apply to any machine. The raw mill is manufactured and assembled in China. The key difference is that all the electronics are assembled in North America using in many cases commercial grade parts. They are also tested here prior to shipment.

John

Originally Posted by rlockwood

Curious what the total cost is for a torus pro, with all included costs of importing to the US. Hadn't considered additional import tax or anything of that nature.

PM if you'd like--

Thanks

I paid $12,650 total, delivered to my driveway. That's for a stepper machine - I was in a hurry to get it, and the servo machines were sold out. So, I bought a stepper machine, and ordered a "servo upgrade kit" to convert it. Honestly, I see no great advantage to the servos - my stepper machine has run flawlessly set for 200 IPM rapids (using a KFlop I installed pretty much as soon as I got the machine). I've run it at 350 IPM with no problems, but just don't like running that fast. The servo machines will do 500 IPM

They'll gladly put together a full quote for you - just ask them.

Regards,
Ray L.

John, thanks for that clarification.
I had the wrong thread, apparently. I found the thread I was looking for:
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/novako...ld_thread.html

It was a new machine, NM-145.

Sorry for the confusion.

Originally Posted by SCzEngrgGroup

I paid $12,650 total, delivered to my driveway. That's for a stepper machine - I was in a hurry to get it, and the servo machines were sold out. So, I bought a stepper machine, and ordered a "servo upgrade kit" to convert it. Honestly, I see no great advantage to the servos - my stepper machine has run flawlessly set for 200 IPM rapids (using a KFlop I installed pretty much as soon as I got the machine). I've run it at 350 IPM with no problems, but just don't like running that fast. The servo machines will do 500 IPM

They'll gladly put together a full quote for you - just ask them.

Regards,
Ray L.

I'd rather waste your time than theirs!

At this point, I have no horse in the race. I dont own either, and am not sure i'll ever actually wind up buying one. I frequent both respective forums about equally, and consider their offerings relatively equal. You'll likely be happier than a pig in.. either way you go.

I would absolutely give the nod to Tormach on the support front. Not only do they appear to be a company that's in it for the long haul, but enough people have adopted them that it doesnt even matter much at this point. The support network will build itself if the company goes bust. On the other hand, I have to give the nod to Novakon on the performance side.

So the question becomes how much does support matter to you? Personally, I love that the Novakon is made with largely aftermarket parts. When someone asks what their first VMC should be, 9 times out of 10 someone (sometimes me) will suggest a Fadal. The reason is simple, they were made with readily available components from reliable sources, and in many cases those components are easily interchanged with other parts. Fadal, the company has largely been dead for nearly ten years; but the machines will likely never die. The Novakon has this edge as well. If you're looking at putting out somewhere in the neighborhood of 10k for a cnc mill, chances are you can handle all required maintenance on either machine without ever needing to give the manufacturer a call. If its your second CNC, its almost certain, as you likely built the first one anyway.

But thats really only when comparing the machines in their respective categories. I think in this case, i'd either go with the 1100, or pony up for the Torus Pro. It would probably be nice, short term, to save a few bucks. But the one thing I know from playing the other side of this game, is that the cost of the machine is nearly insignificant. If you can beg, borrow, or steal (maybe earn, I dunno) the money, buy the biggest baddest machine you can.

It will pay for the difference. (if you have work for it

Originally Posted by tbaker2500

I have never used a Novakon. I have owned a Tormach 1100 since '07. The Novakon products remind me of a well meaning garage operation. Since everything is put together parts, there is no overall attention to quality. I'm reminded of a thread similar to this one http://www.cnczone.com/forums/novako..._part_1_a.html which I can't find at the moment. After buying a new 145 (I believe it was), he spend the next 3 months fixing blocked oil paths, replacing mushed gibs, and hand-honing the ways, which were contacting on just a few high spots. It was a real eye-opener to the focus on important-sounding items like servo motor, without attention to the details that make your machine work like a champ for years.

Tormach makes their machines, yes through chinese factories, from their own design. As best I can tell, Novakon has machines assembled from parts.

I personally would buy the Tormach in a heartbeat over a Novakon. You'll have to decide on what is most important to you, though.

I have no complaints whatsoever with my Torus Pro, and I've had a fair amount of it apart in the process of designing a PDB and ATC for it. The important parts are very nicely made. The electronics are especially nicely done, and very easy to work on. Some of the "accessories" are only adequate - like the light and coolant system, but I think the same is true of the Tormachs. I've put a LOT of miles on the machine since it got here, sometimes generating as much as 25-30 gallons of chips in a single day, and it has proven over the last several months to be dead-reliable, and VERY accurate. When I've measured the parts I've made, they're pretty much always within +/-0.001", and fit together perfectly right off the machine.

It's my understanding the NM-145 was, in some respects, an unfortunate experience for all involved. As I understand it, the factory flaked out on Novakon, and a bunch of the machines had component problems, particularly with BLDC spindle motors and drives. When the problems started cropping up in the field, the factory refused to provide any assistance, leaving Novakon holding the bag. Many of the customers that lived through that experience are still happy with their machines, and the support they received. One in particular, just seems to be out for blood, but there's one of those in every group. The problems with that machine almost killed Novakon, but they're now back, and working really hard at upgrading their whole line of machines. The current machines come from a different factory (I believe the factory that made the NM-145 is no longer in business), and many parts of the machine have been designed by Novakon, especially on the new Pulsar.

In case you haven't been watching the Novakon forum, I have designed both a PDB and ATC that will be sold by Novakon for the Torus, Torus Pro, and Pulsar. Although I have now a business arrangement on those products with Novakon, I bought my machine before all that happened, so I was a Novakon customer before I became a Novakon supplier. My machine did arrive with some damage that occurred in shipping, and they were really good about providing me with all the technical information I needed to sort out the problems, and did not hesitate to send me all the parts required to get it back up and running (new VFD, BOB and oil pump). For me, the larger work envelope, and higher performance, were the major selling points, and I have not regretted my decision for one second. The Torus Pro is a really wonderful machine, and I LOVE working with it (which is good, since I pretty much have to do it pretty much seven days a week....).

Bottom line, I think both Tormach and Novakon make some fine machines, both are good companies to deal with, and both really stand behind their products. But there are significant differences between the machines that could well make one much better than the other for some applications.

Regards,
Ray L.

Originally Posted by tbaker2500

John, thanks for that clarification.
I had the wrong thread, apparently. I found the thread I was looking for:
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/novako...ld_thread.html

It was a new machine, NM-145.

Sorry for the confusion.

I dont mean to sound sarcastic in any way, shape, or form, though i'm relatively certain it will come off this way. Or defensive, or something. But still..

Do you think Tormach hand scrapes their ways? I'd be willing to bet my lunch that a tormach would spot out with nearly identical results. As would virtually any machine being produced in this category. Quite frankly, with the exception of the gibbs (which I would consider unacceptable in that particular case) the factory spotting is quite good compared to many i've seen from other manufacturers using offshore casting houses. Its simply a difficult task to achieve several hyper accurate surfaces all in relative perpendicularity and parallelism to each other, so it costs money.

I'd love to see the thread where someone pulls their 770 tormach apart and shows the perfect spotting pattern on every surface, it would make my decision making considerably easier. I just don't believe it exists! (and this absolutely isn't a knock on tormach, btw. I'm certain their surfaces are all perfectly adequate as well.)

FWIW, this is why any machining centers that fall into the "moderately affordable" category are fit with linear ways. Its just about the only cost effective method of achieving highly accurate ways on a production basis.

you had to know the novakon shill would show up here too.

Originally Posted by rlockwood

Do you think Tormach hand scrapes their ways?

To be fair, they say they do, for whatever it's worth:

Each PCNC 770 features hand-scraped cast iron hydrodynamic sliding dovetailed ways – still the best technology available for withstanding high loads and dampening machining vibrations.

Tormach PCNC 770 Benchtop Mills | Affordable Benchtop CNC

Originally Posted by Flood

Novakon has a limited Z height in its work cube. It would not work for my parts.

Mike

Are you sure you're reading the specs right? My Torus Pro has more Z "space" than my 9x49 knee mill. The actual Z travel may be slightly less, but several of the Novakon machines don't allow the spindle to go all the way to the table. So, on my Pro, the spindle nose can be from 5" to almost 17" above the table. The only time this is a problem, is when working with very low fixtures, which I have several of. I simply built some 2" x 2" riser blocks to raise those fixtures off the table, and it all works perfectly.

Spindle Nose to Table Distance:

Torus: 2" - 14-1/4"
Torus Pro: 5-1/4" - 16-3/4"
Pulsar: 2" - 14-1/4"

What are you doing that those are not enough??

Regards,
Ray L.